freedom of the seas starts a meter from the shoreline not outside EEZ
baystead achiveable freedom culture background dependent
The grade of freedom achievable for a baystead within the territorial waters of a “host nation” is not a fixed parameter it depends very much on the cultural background of the host nation.
Some participant of the seasteading community sustain that a host nation NEVER would allow a group of people on a floating platform to “declare a kind of independence” – this may be true for host states where “independence” has been a bloody historical event, and is percieved as central event of making or breaking sovereignity law and order.
On the other extreme of the culture spectrum are Latin American states which where formed in the tradition of Bolivar who sustained that a state is basicly a patchwork of interest groups negoctiating their living together . It is common in Latin america to see a quest for independence not as a breaking point but a legitimate interest of a group that needs to be negotiated properly and where you can come to a both side satisfactory agreement without any problem. States like Colombia are full of special territories that have special statuses.
Just to give an example to our american friends, who are on the other side of the culture spectrum, how relevant this is.
If a member of the Embera indian tribe who has his own territory and laws travels to Bogota gets drunk and kills somebody he will be caught by the Colombian police, hold for 24 hours and then a judge will turn him over to the Embera justice councel because he is member of this community. The Embera do not believe in the cultural value to enclose criminals in a Jail like an animal – they believe in education and showing the rightful path. In practice they will submit him to fuete and social rejection and then set him free to continue with his life on a better path…
In my investigation how profound and complete the freedom and independence of a baystead in the bay of Cartagena could be i was pointed to Government legal advisors who informed me that the only “limit to the achievable freedom” is the “CONVENIENCE for Colombia”.
What this means in detail – i know it – i checked it – it is basicly the full 20 point list the TSI holds for “desireable freedoms on a seastead”.
To protect investor and politics interests i will not say much more than that, but even for me – the grade of “achievable freedom” on a floating platform in the bay of Cartagena is just AMAZING .
What i found out is that the REALPOLITIK of freedom in the bay can give you anything that was discussed on the seasteading-org forums in the last 6 years as “only achievable ouside EEZ”.
The whole perception of the seasteading community that the freedom of the seas starts “far out at sea” is completly wrong – working with the correct host country with the correct cultural background in the host nation it starts a few meter from the shoreline.
http://www.seasteading.org/forum-list/topic/what-defines-a-seastead/page/9/#post-25244
from: oceanopolis
Very true indeed, ellmer “… working with the correct host country with the correct cultural background in the host nation it starts a few meter from the shoreline.”
Few years ago, a client of mine who was developing his private cay (island) in the Bahamas as a marina, resort, etc. was mentioning how much freedom he has not only on his land but also running private fishing and diving charters in the surrounding waters with virtually no government interference.
Yes, of course he was loaded and once in a while he would “grease” certain hands, but de facto he had absolute “autonomy” over his cay and the surrounding waters.
state perception is different
@ocean as we are both involed in the “practice of marine business” we have a realistic perception on “what you can get away with” on a specific location. In my experience it is not about “greasing hands” the freedom of the seas applied right to the shoreline no claim of states for the waterspace has always been the economic base of the caribbean, nobody ever questioned that, the “interception practice” reflects that – US coast guards standard behavior of acting like a police force projected far out into the waterspace is a “big big exception in the caribbean context” – not the general rule at sea every state applies… what you say about absolutly no government interference a few meters from shore in a marina is kind of normal to me living in the caribbean, but i understand that this sounds “almost incredible” to smith who sustains that only dozends of nautical miles out there – interference freedom can start- perception that comes from a ambient where you are intercepted and scrutinized when boating twice a day…
from ocean:
By the way, it’s not only CG. We have Police Dept., Sheriff Dept. and Fish and Wildlife Dept. patrolling the Intracoastal Waterway and beyond now in brand new speedboats with triple 300 hp outboards on the transom giving speeding tickets to boaters in so called “no wake zones” (created, of course, so you will get a ticket there) and giving tickets for no fishing license to a poor soul trying to catch 2 snappers from a pier in order to feed a family of 4,…
All this because dept. budgets the size of a small country GDP have to be spend in order to justify next year budget and some good old boy’s job security while pretending to be “the guardians of democracy”.
interference budgets and offical numbers matter not UN law
@ocean, yes the more the budgets grow and the number of “interference officials” grow, the more grows the “range of reasons to interfere” last week i had a 5000 ton tankship in the bay of cartagena whose captain (and scandinavic owner) would not take course to the United States because he feared that a coast guard official would turn the ship around if he can not show the repair of a sensor that was required to be repaired by the coast guard while the GL (German Lloyds) wrote the proper repair within 3 months into the books. In other words the ship was blocked at a cost of 80.000 USD/ day in Cartagena waiting for spare parts because a “small CG officer wanted to go beyond the requirements of GL” – asuming functions that do not correspond. The captain of the ship percieved this as “bulleying”… again i understood that for any Captain navigating worldwide entering US waters and being submitted to US interception practice is a VERY VERY special case – mixed with a lot of fear.
from smith:
no way President Santos allows ..
to smith:
He will not “allow” he will declare “out of jurisdiction” that is different. Colombia does not allow to trade a women for a donkey – but tradition in la Guajira does. Respect for their culture demands no interference. As American you would be surprised how far this goes in practice. – Americans tend to believe that their culture and law and their way seeing things, is “the nable of the world” – respect for other cultures seeing things different is much more rooted in nations formed along the ideas of Bolivar – for good and for bad. There is not a right way and a wrong way – there are many ways and many laws and many culture groups. Different ways must not be submitted and policed they must be negociated and respected. Bolivar is much nearer to the seasteading vision of multi culture than the US founding fathers. This has impact on dayly realpolitics.
